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	<title>Comments on: You Had No Right</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/</link>
	<description>Standing in the Gap in a Society that's Warring with God.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 11:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/#comment-80891</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 12:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/#comment-80891</guid>
		<description>@Musicguy: I guess it depends on whether the government should be lifestyle enforcers or not.  According to the law, if a man is engaged in sexual relations with a woman under the appropriate age, then he should be punished according to the law.

Polygamy is a stickier issue.  No doubt, none of these pairings (or perhaps one) is actually a "legal" marriage.  The rest may have bonded with commitment ceremonies, but not official marriages-- because that too would have been prosecuted under the law.

If we were to begin, as you suggest, and "save the children" by taking them out of the polygamist homes by virtue of the fact that they have, what, too many parents?  A bad style of relationship?  Then in order to be consistent we'd also have to take away not only the children of non-married homosexual couples, but also all of those single mothers that were either living with boyfriends, living by themselves, or living with another family.

That would be wrong, in my opinion.

To me, a child belongs to their parents-- not in the way a cat or a dog belongs to a person, but they belong as in being a part of, coming from, their parents.  That bond is something that shouldn't be violated without some really good reason-- i.e. physical or sexual abuse (and I could be persuaded to throw in here mental abuse, but that's harder to define).

So, I wouldn't take away the children from the polygamists and the cohabitating parents or the single mom.  Homosexual parents are trickier-- though the homosexual mom that birthed the child is the mom, and I'd support her keeping her child.

I would also support the unpopular opinion that the dad should be allowed to be in his kids life-- in the single mom's case.

Yes, I do believe a house with a two-parent heterosexual family is the best environment to raise stable children.  But no, I don't believe in taking away kids from their parents to place them into the "ideal situation" simply because they are in one that is less than ideal.

And to try to answer your question in a slightly different way, the way to change the hearts of the "immoral polygamists" as well as those that are living in a sinful lifestyle is through prayer, through God and a change of heart.  We can try our best to tell these polygamists that they're wrong.  We can try to force them to behave in a certain way using their kids for blackmail (what the Texas CPS is now doing).  But none of these will have any lasting impact unless their heart is changed first.

True repentance (change) comes from the inside out.  But that's another post for another time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Musicguy: I guess it depends on whether the government should be lifestyle enforcers or not.  According to the law, if a man is engaged in sexual relations with a woman under the appropriate age, then he should be punished according to the law.</p>
<p>Polygamy is a stickier issue.  No doubt, none of these pairings (or perhaps one) is actually a &#8220;legal&#8221; marriage.  The rest may have bonded with commitment ceremonies, but not official marriages&#8211; because that too would have been prosecuted under the law.</p>
<p>If we were to begin, as you suggest, and &#8220;save the children&#8221; by taking them out of the polygamist homes by virtue of the fact that they have, what, too many parents?  A bad style of relationship?  Then in order to be consistent we&#8217;d also have to take away not only the children of non-married homosexual couples, but also all of those single mothers that were either living with boyfriends, living by themselves, or living with another family.</p>
<p>That would be wrong, in my opinion.</p>
<p>To me, a child belongs to their parents&#8211; not in the way a cat or a dog belongs to a person, but they belong as in being a part of, coming from, their parents.  That bond is something that shouldn&#8217;t be violated without some really good reason&#8211; i.e. physical or sexual abuse (and I could be persuaded to throw in here mental abuse, but that&#8217;s harder to define).</p>
<p>So, I wouldn&#8217;t take away the children from the polygamists and the cohabitating parents or the single mom.  Homosexual parents are trickier&#8211; though the homosexual mom that birthed the child is the mom, and I&#8217;d support her keeping her child.</p>
<p>I would also support the unpopular opinion that the dad should be allowed to be in his kids life&#8211; in the single mom&#8217;s case.</p>
<p>Yes, I do believe a house with a two-parent heterosexual family is the best environment to raise stable children.  But no, I don&#8217;t believe in taking away kids from their parents to place them into the &#8220;ideal situation&#8221; simply because they are in one that is less than ideal.</p>
<p>And to try to answer your question in a slightly different way, the way to change the hearts of the &#8220;immoral polygamists&#8221; as well as those that are living in a sinful lifestyle is through prayer, through God and a change of heart.  We can try our best to tell these polygamists that they&#8217;re wrong.  We can try to force them to behave in a certain way using their kids for blackmail (what the Texas CPS is now doing).  But none of these will have any lasting impact unless their heart is changed first.</p>
<p>True repentance (change) comes from the inside out.  But that&#8217;s another post for another time.</p>
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		<title>By: Musicguy</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/#comment-80887</link>
		<dc:creator>Musicguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 23:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/#comment-80887</guid>
		<description>so how should the government deal with these immoral polygamists?  Obviously, the goverment shouldn't be condoning or tolerating this sinful lifestyle (hmm where have I heard that before??)  How can we "save the children" and get them into a "traditional" two parent home (comprised, of course, of one man and one woman)?

Musicguys last blog post..&lt;a href="http://musicguy2723.blogspot.com/2008/05/personal-update.html"&gt;Personal Update!&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so how should the government deal with these immoral polygamists?  Obviously, the goverment shouldn&#8217;t be condoning or tolerating this sinful lifestyle (hmm where have I heard that before??)  How can we &#8220;save the children&#8221; and get them into a &#8220;traditional&#8221; two parent home (comprised, of course, of one man and one woman)?</p>
<p>Musicguys last blog post..<a href="http://musicguy2723.blogspot.com/2008/05/personal-update.html">Personal Update!</a></p>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/#comment-80881</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 12:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/#comment-80881</guid>
		<description>@Musicguy: I do try to be as consistent as I can, and to be as transparent as I can.  I believe that all sex outside of a heterosexual marriage relationship to be sin.  Yes, polygamy falls inside that real, as does homosexuality and those that are engaging in premarital sex.

What I am not saying is what the punishment for these things should be if any.  I believe that if you'll look around, though I've spent a lot of words talking about why I believe that polygamy is sin, homosexuality is wrong, and people should wait until their married to have sex, I don't think you'll find me saying that those that cohabitate should lose their children, that homosexuals should be locked in insane asylums or that polygamists should be jailed.

I am making two moral judgments when it comes to the Mormons: Polygamy is a sin and the Government overreached.  Just as the court ruled, it was wrong to consider the group simply because of physical location and same religion-- it should have been by family.  That doesn't change my opinion on polygamy.

Does that make sense?  That's part of the reason that I call it overreach.  It's not that I don't believe that there shouldn't have been something done, it's that I believe the wrong thing was done, and continues to be done, and that this branch of the government has too much power and too little oversight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Musicguy: I do try to be as consistent as I can, and to be as transparent as I can.  I believe that all sex outside of a heterosexual marriage relationship to be sin.  Yes, polygamy falls inside that real, as does homosexuality and those that are engaging in premarital sex.</p>
<p>What I am not saying is what the punishment for these things should be if any.  I believe that if you&#8217;ll look around, though I&#8217;ve spent a lot of words talking about why I believe that polygamy is sin, homosexuality is wrong, and people should wait until their married to have sex, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ll find me saying that those that cohabitate should lose their children, that homosexuals should be locked in insane asylums or that polygamists should be jailed.</p>
<p>I am making two moral judgments when it comes to the Mormons: Polygamy is a sin and the Government overreached.  Just as the court ruled, it was wrong to consider the group simply because of physical location and same religion&#8211; it should have been by family.  That doesn&#8217;t change my opinion on polygamy.</p>
<p>Does that make sense?  That&#8217;s part of the reason that I call it overreach.  It&#8217;s not that I don&#8217;t believe that there shouldn&#8217;t have been something done, it&#8217;s that I believe the wrong thing was done, and continues to be done, and that this branch of the government has too much power and too little oversight.</p>
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		<title>By: Musicguy</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/#comment-80877</link>
		<dc:creator>Musicguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 12:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/05/22/you-had-no-right/#comment-80877</guid>
		<description>Min, I find your support for these families baffling to say the least.  I know that you're not the least bit supportive of gays and lesbians adopting children or conceiving through artificial means as their lifestyle is "immoral, sinful, and unhealthy."  But isn't the polygamist lifestyle also immoral, sinful, and unhealthy???  

With all the talk of marriage supposedly being between ONE man and ONE woman, I thought you'd be the first one praising the government for removing these children from the sinful polygamists.

Musicguys last blog post..&lt;a href="http://musicguy2723.blogspot.com/2008/05/currently-reading.html"&gt;Currently Reading&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Min, I find your support for these families baffling to say the least.  I know that you&#8217;re not the least bit supportive of gays and lesbians adopting children or conceiving through artificial means as their lifestyle is &#8220;immoral, sinful, and unhealthy.&#8221;  But isn&#8217;t the polygamist lifestyle also immoral, sinful, and unhealthy???  </p>
<p>With all the talk of marriage supposedly being between ONE man and ONE woman, I thought you&#8217;d be the first one praising the government for removing these children from the sinful polygamists.</p>
<p>Musicguys last blog post..<a href="http://musicguy2723.blogspot.com/2008/05/currently-reading.html">Currently Reading</a></p>
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