And yet in my specific context, there’s an opportunity to have the sin forgiven– an ultimate punishment.

As for “proof”– I won’t even go into the “near death experiences” to say that the one person that came back from the dead can state what happens at death.

I don’t want people to be good– being good is worthless. The problem is systemic. No matter how hard you or I or anyone tries to be good, we will fail. So, asking or expecting people to “be good” is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

What I’m encouraging people to do is to establish a relationship with the Creator of the Universe– as crazy to you as it sounds– such that He will change us into the image of His Son.

I want people to be good because it will help them, it is in their best interests, etc. but I’m a realist and understand that people fail. You can’t trust them. They will let you down. But there is one that never will, and to Him I will cling.

Ahh, there’s the rub. Your religious assertion is that there will be “eventual” punishment for sin. Well, it’s obvious that “eventual” might be a long time in the future and there’s really no “proof” that your assertion is true. So you want people to be good by love or fear.

I think that fear of the long arm of the law is a better motivator than “love your neighbor” or “eventual” (after death is awfully eventual) punishment.

Actually, I’m glad you asked the question about obedience to God. In most areas, there are clear guidelines to obeying God. There are abundant lists of the things that God likes and dislikes. But Romans 14 has an interesting discussion as well, where the Apostle Paul talks about how it’s a heart attitude that’s important rather than the details.

As for the punishment, it’s clear: All sin requires death and separation from God, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ. Now, that does not mean that you disobey God right now and you die instantly– though that has happened on occasion. God, in His mercy, recognizes that we all sin, and gives us the ability to come into a relationship with Him. This opportunity is not indefinite, however, and there will be eventual punishment for sin.

Innate knowledge of right and wrong does not mean that we want to choose right– which is the point of child training. Ask a child (or a politician for that matter) whether it is right or wrong to lie, he’ll say it’s wrong– but he still lies. There are virtues that everyone believes is right and things that everyone believes is wrong. (Valor, Courage, Kindness, Love, Patience being things everyone agrees is right. Traitor, Not keeping promises, murder are things everyone agrees is wrong.)

Actually, Romans 6 directly addresses your last comment:

Should we sin that grace may abound? God forbid that you should even think that!

That there is grace to pardon sin is not a blank check to commit sin, but a result of the relationship that has been entered with God. A love relationship that should make us want to sin less and become more like Him.

Same as a relationship with a spouse– A husband loves his wife, but he’s not always going to do things that show that love. He may goof up from time to time, but the loving wife will forgive. It’s not a blank check for him to abuse her (that she will forgive him), but a byproduct of his desire to show his love.

Silly strawman from 150 years ago.

“At its core, Christian morality boils down to obeying God vs. disobeying God.”

And who gets to decide how to “obey God”? And what is the punishment for disobedience?

“I’m going to say that morality does not exist outside of God.”

I’m going to say you’re an idiot.

“I do believe that you have an innate knowledge of right and wrong.”

What does “innate” really mean? I recommend teaching a child instead of trusting to “innate” knowledge.

“show those that are in sin that there’s a way to get out of the guilt– through Jesus shed blood on the cross.”

Yes, this is the fundamental irrationality of Christianity. Commit the sin and avoid the guilt.