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	<title>Comments on: Creator = Owner</title>
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	<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/</link>
	<description>Standing in the Gap in a Society that's Warring with God.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/comment-page-1/#comment-78933</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/#comment-78933</guid>
		<description>That's an interesting way to look at it, Stephen.  I've certainly heard the argument before that we need the possibility of sin in order to have the free will to choose.  As well as the concept that if we have to choice but to worship, it's not as great as choosing to worship.  I had not thought through to the point of thinking that this is the most perfect Creation that He could make because of it.

Interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an interesting way to look at it, Stephen.  I&#8217;ve certainly heard the argument before that we need the possibility of sin in order to have the free will to choose.  As well as the concept that if we have to choice but to worship, it&#8217;s not as great as choosing to worship.  I had not thought through to the point of thinking that this is the most perfect Creation that He could make because of it.</p>
<p>Interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Kingston</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/comment-page-1/#comment-78930</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Kingston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/#comment-78930</guid>
		<description>oops. Forgot to click the notify button :)

&lt;em&gt;Stephen Kingston's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://safle.org/wordpress/2007/10/12/happy-endings-spoof-foundation.html'&gt;Happy Endings Spoof Foundation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops. Forgot to click the notify button <img src='http://www.minthegap.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
<em>Stephen Kingston&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://safle.org/wordpress/2007/10/12/happy-endings-spoof-foundation.html'>Happy Endings Spoof Foundation</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Kingston</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/comment-page-1/#comment-78929</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Kingston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/#comment-78929</guid>
		<description>I think there is another aspect to this too. Steve may say that God is negligent to create a world when he knows people will sin, and yet God's creation is filled with sin. So does that not make him the author of sin?But consider the multiplicity of ways in which God could have made creation. It is clear that a creation with no hope of salvation would be deficient. It is also clear that a creation of automatons, without the will to worship God - only to parrot back platitudes - is also deficient.But I believe that what God created was the most perfect creation that is possible. That is to say, he *had* to allow a creation where there would be sin, because no other creation could be as perfect as this one.And what makes this creation perfect and just is that the God who created the universe - who knew what he was getting into, and could clearly have turned away and created none of it, or destroyed it in a moment - it was that God who chose to take the punishment for our sin on himself, humbling himself before men and suffering for our sake.Without him we would not be here, but he made us because in dying for us he could also make his creation into the perfection that could be made no other way.Stephen

&lt;em&gt;Stephen Kingston's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://safle.org/wordpress/2007/10/12/happy-endings-spoof-foundation.html'&gt;Happy Endings Spoof Foundation&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is another aspect to this too. Steve may say that God is negligent to create a world when he knows people will sin, and yet God&#8217;s creation is filled with sin. So does that not make him the author of sin?But consider the multiplicity of ways in which God could have made creation. It is clear that a creation with no hope of salvation would be deficient. It is also clear that a creation of automatons, without the will to worship God - only to parrot back platitudes - is also deficient.But I believe that what God created was the most perfect creation that is possible. That is to say, he *had* to allow a creation where there would be sin, because no other creation could be as perfect as this one.And what makes this creation perfect and just is that the God who created the universe - who knew what he was getting into, and could clearly have turned away and created none of it, or destroyed it in a moment - it was that God who chose to take the punishment for our sin on himself, humbling himself before men and suffering for our sake.Without him we would not be here, but he made us because in dying for us he could also make his creation into the perfection that could be made no other way.Stephen</p>
<p><em>Stephen Kingston&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://safle.org/wordpress/2007/10/12/happy-endings-spoof-foundation.html'>Happy Endings Spoof Foundation</a></em></p>
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		<title>By: Leticia</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/comment-page-1/#comment-78896</link>
		<dc:creator>Leticia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/#comment-78896</guid>
		<description>God created us to have the freedom to choose Him or reject Him.&#160; As a human, I want to do things my own way even though I know it is wrong, but my Spirit wants to only please, honor and glorify my heavenly Father.&#160; I choose to give my life, my entire being to him freely and willingly.&#160; 
&#160;
&#160;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God created us to have the freedom to choose Him or reject Him.&nbsp; As a human, I want to do things my own way even though I know it is wrong, but my Spirit wants to only please, honor and glorify my heavenly Father.&nbsp; I choose to give my life, my entire being to him freely and willingly.&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/comment-page-1/#comment-78894</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/#comment-78894</guid>
		<description>You're right - I was too busy looking at it from my all too human perspective. Thanks for pointing out the bigger picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right - I was too busy looking at it from my all too human perspective. Thanks for pointing out the bigger picture.</p>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/comment-page-1/#comment-78893</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/#comment-78893</guid>
		<description>The problem comes from a problem of perspective.  We all tend to look at things from a human-centered perspective: my will, my decision, my rights, my choice, what can I do for God, boy does God love me...  What needs to happen, instead, is to look at it from God's perspective.

He's the creator, the owner, and He is justice.  There is no law higher than him, he is the law.

Let me illustrate.  In baseball, there are a certain set of rules-- rules for strikes, walks, safe, out, foul, fair, errors, etc.  Yet, even though these are the rules, the umpire is the final rule-- the final authority.  If the umpire says that a foul ball was fair, it's fair.  Complaining about the call is meaningless, because the umpire is the rule.  Even if they were to institute replay, the umpire would still be the one to change the call.

This is an imperfect illustration of God.  He is justice-- unlike the umpire who is calling plays imperfectly-- God is never unjust.  Does that help?

Again, back to the whole concept of ownership.  God can create anything He wants for whatever purpose He wants.  The Bible states that He creates some "vessels" to honor and others to dishonor.  We only have a problem with it because of our perspective-- our pride, arrogance, and the view that somehow we are more just than God.  God can't be considered criminally negligent because 1) it's not possible, because He is the final authority and 2) you'd have to prove that it's not in the Creator's rights to do whatever He wants with His creation.

Look at it from a different angle...  If we were talking about other planets and some were created and destroyed, is He not just in creating and destroying them?  Even if He knew from the beginning that they would be created or destroyed?  How about the flowers in the fields-- God created plants and knew that we would have to consume them... is He unjust for creating things to be consumed?

The problem comes into play when we think about the fact that souls are more permanent than animals, plants and planets, and yet even then, God has the rights as Creator to do whatever He wants with His creation.

Another illustration:  Many times when you have children around the house you'll hear the expression, "but it's not fair!"  and they're right.  Life is not fair.  We have no expectation of fairness, regardless how hard parents will try to be fair.  We can hope to expect justice, but not fairness.  Same thing when it comes to Creation-- God is just, and yet He gives some people talents in one place, some people He allows to attain greatness, others monetary gain, and some are born with birth defects.  We are tempted to scream "You're not fair, God!", but we are reminded that all are created to serve a purpose He has.  

The disciples asked Jesus why the man that was born blind from birth-- and Jesus answered that it wasn't because of his sin or his parent's sin, but that God could receive the glory.

Ultimately, it all boils down to this concept.  We're all created as we are so that He can receive glory.  Pharoah's heart was hardened and he rejected God so that God could receive glory.  We need to look at things from His perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem comes from a problem of perspective.  We all tend to look at things from a human-centered perspective: my will, my decision, my rights, my choice, what can I do for God, boy does God love me&#8230;  What needs to happen, instead, is to look at it from God&#8217;s perspective.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s the creator, the owner, and He is justice.  There is no law higher than him, he is the law.</p>
<p>Let me illustrate.  In baseball, there are a certain set of rules&#8211; rules for strikes, walks, safe, out, foul, fair, errors, etc.  Yet, even though these are the rules, the umpire is the final rule&#8211; the final authority.  If the umpire says that a foul ball was fair, it&#8217;s fair.  Complaining about the call is meaningless, because the umpire is the rule.  Even if they were to institute replay, the umpire would still be the one to change the call.</p>
<p>This is an imperfect illustration of God.  He is justice&#8211; unlike the umpire who is calling plays imperfectly&#8211; God is never unjust.  Does that help?</p>
<p>Again, back to the whole concept of ownership.  God can create anything He wants for whatever purpose He wants.  The Bible states that He creates some &#8220;vessels&#8221; to honor and others to dishonor.  We only have a problem with it because of our perspective&#8211; our pride, arrogance, and the view that somehow we are more just than God.  God can&#8217;t be considered criminally negligent because 1) it&#8217;s not possible, because He is the final authority and 2) you&#8217;d have to prove that it&#8217;s not in the Creator&#8217;s rights to do whatever He wants with His creation.</p>
<p>Look at it from a different angle&#8230;  If we were talking about other planets and some were created and destroyed, is He not just in creating and destroying them?  Even if He knew from the beginning that they would be created or destroyed?  How about the flowers in the fields&#8211; God created plants and knew that we would have to consume them&#8230; is He unjust for creating things to be consumed?</p>
<p>The problem comes into play when we think about the fact that souls are more permanent than animals, plants and planets, and yet even then, God has the rights as Creator to do whatever He wants with His creation.</p>
<p>Another illustration:  Many times when you have children around the house you&#8217;ll hear the expression, &#8220;but it&#8217;s not fair!&#8221;  and they&#8217;re right.  Life is not fair.  We have no expectation of fairness, regardless how hard parents will try to be fair.  We can hope to expect justice, but not fairness.  Same thing when it comes to Creation&#8211; God is just, and yet He gives some people talents in one place, some people He allows to attain greatness, others monetary gain, and some are born with birth defects.  We are tempted to scream &#8220;You&#8217;re not fair, God!&#8221;, but we are reminded that all are created to serve a purpose He has.  </p>
<p>The disciples asked Jesus why the man that was born blind from birth&#8211; and Jesus answered that it wasn&#8217;t because of his sin or his parent&#8217;s sin, but that God could receive the glory.</p>
<p>Ultimately, it all boils down to this concept.  We&#8217;re all created as we are so that He can receive glory.  Pharoah&#8217;s heart was hardened and he rejected God so that God could receive glory.  We need to look at things from His perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/comment-page-1/#comment-78892</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/2008/01/15/creator-owner/#comment-78892</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting post. On one hand, I can see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, there was something I have a problem with.
&lt;EM&gt;First, Steve neglects to take into account the Ownership of God– an owner has the right to do whatever He wants with His property.&lt;/EM&gt;
This is true. But it's a hard pill to swallow when you're using it as a reason why God can't be considered criminally negligent. It's hard for &lt;EM&gt;me&lt;/EM&gt; to swallow, and I worship God! I can only imagine how such a statement would be seen from other eyes. I'd be interested in having you elaborate on that concept.
&#160;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting post. On one hand, I can see where you&#8217;re coming from, but on the other hand, there was something I have a problem with.<br />
<em>First, Steve neglects to take into account the Ownership of God– an owner has the right to do whatever He wants with His property.</em><br />
This is true. But it&#8217;s a hard pill to swallow when you&#8217;re using it as a reason why God can&#8217;t be considered criminally negligent. It&#8217;s hard for <em>me</em> to swallow, and I worship God! I can only imagine how such a statement would be seen from other eyes. I&#8217;d be interested in having you elaborate on that concept.<br />
&nbsp;</p>
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