“The Christian rule of chastity must not be confused with the social rule of “modesty” (in one sense of that word); i.e., propriety, or decency. The social rule of propriety lays down how much of the human body should be displayed and what subjects can be referred to, and in what words, according to the customs of a certain social circle. Thus, while the rule of chastity is the same for all Christians at all times, the rule of propriety changes. A girl in the Pacific islands wearing hardly any clothes and a Victorian lady completely covered in clothes might both be equally “modest,” proper or decent, according to the standards of their own societies: and both, for all we could tell by their dress, might be equally chaste (or unchaste).”

I wonder of this is part of what the apostle Peter meant when he said,

“Do not let you adornment be merely outward– arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel– rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.” (1 Peter 3:3-4)

ASK HIM!

That’s right! Talk to each other for the sake of Christ and the Church! Get to know each other! Share each other’s burdens! Confess one to another! Stop being so scared to interact with other Christians! Simply trust that God makes all things to work together for those who are in Christ (you) and do as He has already commanded you, FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER!

Dear Lord, let your Church stop beating around the bush of your Word and let us follow your Truth in earnest! Amen!

Arthur, I think that I’ve been quite to the point that modesty is a heart attitude above all things and that clothing is simply the external reflection of that clothing.

I know that you have brother, and I don’t mean to rebuke you on this point at all. I only mean to comment on the particular wording of what I quote an expound upon it. I don’t, in particular, fear that you are mistaken in your understaning of the Truth of the Scriptures, but I want to try and make the Truth clearer, bringing to Light aspects that you may not have specifically addressed. I hope I have not offended you in this.

MInTheGaps Writes:
But what if a woman (or man) wants to be modest in their apparel. Should we tell them to refrain from even discussing it since it’s all about the heart, or should we try to help them navigate what would keep their brothers from stumbling.

OK, but this is my whole point brother! If we see someone focusing on the particulars of what is ‘modest clothing’ and what is not, and we do not try to re-direct them to the spiritual aspect of Christ, then we do them a great dis-service. I know that you would not want to direct someone toward legalism, so I only seek to encourage you to direct people toward a genuine relationship with Christ. Furthermore I seek to encourage any who might be living under the rule of the law to free themselves in Christ. In no way do I mean to undermine your opinion or stance. I only seek to the Truth of the Gospel and the Truth of the Gospel of Christ is this: “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24

It is simply not about WHAT YOU WEAR but it is about WHO YOU BELIEVE. If you have to ask the question, “What should I wear to please God?” then you have already missed the point. So to humor a person’s point of view that there is a ‘holy dresscode’, trying to define for them the ‘particulars’ or the ‘applicables’ is to mislead them. Let us not do this, Brother, but let us point to the Truth of the Gospel of Christ instead!

Find Jesus Christ in your heart, LOVE HIM! Do not seek to earn your way into Heaven as the Pharisees, but instead trust in Him who is sent from God Almighty to be sin in your place and pay your penalty. Worship Christ in spirit, not in outward appearance!

MInTheGap,

If this is what you believe then we have no point upon which to argue. I earnestly apologize for anthing I said that may have caused you to think we are at odds, or otherwise caused you to stumble.

(honestly, I don’t understand what the difference is between logging in and when your site automatically recognizes my IP. If it recognizes my IP then can people click on my avatar and see my site? Otherwise, http://www.arthureiss.com)

For instance, in the post What is Modest (above):

As for the wearer, the real problem is in the heart attitude rather than what the person is wearing. Any individual item of clothing can be worn in such a way that it is immodest or modest. What is reflected, however, is what the wearer wants to be seen.

In What Does the Bible Say About Modesty?:

So, what can we gain from the Bible’s references to modesty? To boil it down, it’s all about the heart. The heart attitude, the heart’s reflection, and the heart’s desire. We’ve also learned that your clothing is broadcasting a message. It may be broadcasting the message that everyone else’s is– but that doesn’t make it right.

In But Women Don’t Wear Hats Anymore:

If we keep these things in mind, and cultivate a pure heart, we will be radiating the beauty from within– and any attention that we get will go to the One that made us.

From Hey Check Me Out!:

We’re not to dress to draw attention to our form, to our looks, or toward the outward appearance. We can’t control what others will think of what we wear, but we can control what we show them. And we should attempt to be modest and show our inner person, not our outer.

Do you see a pattern? My point though most if not all of my posts is that modesty comes from the heart and is something internal that is reflected externally. But what if a woman (or man) wants to be modest in their apparel. Should we tell them to refrain from even discussing it since it’s all about the heart, or should we try to help them navigate what would keep their brothers from stumbling.

Is modesty to build anticipation? It is part of it when it comes to talking about clothing. It may not be part of it when it comes to talking about the heart attitude.

Why dress modern? Why dress old fashioned? Why buy clothes when you can sew them? Why sew them when you can buy them? Hemp or cotton? Imported or domestic? China or India? Natural dyes or artificial? Pink or blue? Shout, Clorox, All, or Sam’s Choice? Car or horse-drawn carriage?

Cindy Huebert Said:

I think modesty also involves blending in with those around you, as in, “not drawing undue attention to yourself.”

Perhaps… perhaps not. After all, we are called to be aliens in a foreign land as well as we are called to be a Greek to the Greek and a Jew to the Jew… but we are neither Jew nor Greek. Oh well… semantics I suppose.

MInTheGap Said:

You’re right on when you say modesty is exciting– it’s because you can’t have or can’t see things.

Just a finer point here; I don’t think the idea here is to build up anticipation and curiosity in people about things they can’t see. Actually that seems to appeal to a fleshly, selfish desire to know the unknown and see the unseen. It seems to appeal to the mischievous sin-nature in mankind that wants what it cannot have. In fact, it seems to me wholly hollow if the whole point to modesty is to entice our senses via a starvation-fulfillment cycle.

The purpose of modesty is far more intensely spiritual than practical. Practical results are bound to come, but look at all the time we spend discussing the practical end when the Truth of God’s Word calls us to a more spiritual relationship with Him? Modesty is a quality of character, not a quality of clothing. Let’s not focus on outward modesty but lets instead focus on inward modesty. What does that look like? Well… it doesn’t ‘LOOK’ at all.

Is modesty exciting? ABSOLUTELY! Show me a woman with a humble heart and modest outlook and I will surely be attracted! And I’ll admit, I’ve been fooled by a woman’s outward appearance more than once. I’ve mistaken a prideful, selfish, self-indulgent woman for a humble one because she wore conservative fashion. (Did you get that one? Conservative Fashion… think about it for a minute) However, upon getting to know a woman a bit better, as the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart, one may find oneself quite disappointed.

What’s exciting about modesty is not the thrill of the taboo, but the knowledge of the Truth. To know that you are in a true relationship with the Almighty, reconciled by the Spirit and that you can share that with your wife, I submit to you, must be a higher virtue than seeing the unseen.

A naked woman on the streets could be more modest and humble than an Amish mother.

You want a litmus test for modesty? For every hour you spend worrying about what you will wear, how many hours do you spend sharing the Gospel of Christ with your neighbor?

Matthew 6:28

Starting with Jenna’s point, there has to be an absolute standard, otherwise if you found yourself in a nudist colony you’d have to be naked in order not to attract attention! And I have to agree with Jenna that, to a certain degree, our lives are supposed to be about attracting good attention– the difference between us and the world.

However, to Cindy’s point, would dressing differently actually get you unwanted attention? Since men are probably going to fantasize regardless what you wear, does the fact that you do not fit in attract attention that it shouldn’t. Said differently, can you wear attire that both does not stick out and yet is modest?

That’s exactly what Mary’s asking. Does she have to refrain from swimming because you can’t help but draw attention to yourself or dress immodestly?

This last Sunday my wife and I went to a party for our son’s Sunday school class (4 small kids in the class) that had a pool, and we both went in with t-shirts and shorts. Would I have felt comfortable in less? Not really.

In college, a pastor used to joke about “beach evangelism” and the subtext was “men don’t go to the beach to evangelize, they go to look at women.”

So, this is a tough question. You don’t want to deprive children of a chance to play in a pool, but if you knew what was going on in some men’s minds you’d never go to one again. I mean, if someone were looking at your daughter (even dressed in a modest swimsuit) would you go to that pool or beach again? And yet do you know?

I hear so often that modesty involves also fitting in with other people- but I’m not so sure that that is the case. I’ve read many times in the bible where we are told to be modest, and it is always regarding areas of nakedness. If this nakedness is against what God wants for us, then why would a person want to follow the example of the world to “fit in” in order to avoid standing out? Aren’t we supposed to be in the world, but not of it? Aren’t we supposed to be different? It seems to me that in some ways, being a Christian is very IMMODEST, if “fitting in” is one of the criteria for modesty these days. That’s not to say that we need to purposefully wear the most ugly and volumous clothing available, but that looking like everyone else shouldn’t be a measure of modesty.

Oh, and “M”, I just loved that quote about the orthodox jewish woman. I have found that by baring less, it really does make the little things so much more meaningful.

This was a great modesty article, MIn, I really enjoyed it. And you are so right, modesty to me, means so much more to the burkha wearer, and so much less to the average American Christian. Is it enough to be appropriate to the place? IE, at pools, wear swimsuits? Even if I cover up my suit with a t-shirt and shorts, that’s still considered completely immodest by most dresses-only women. I hate perpetuating a double standard, so am I about to start avoiding public bathing as many do who have this issue on their hearts?

I just pray all of us who want to wear modesty as a badge will refrain from making others feel inappropriate and lacking for not following in our footsteps. There’s definitely a time and place to advocate modesty, but if I suddenly started wearing a head-covering to church it would turn many people off to any other testimony I may have had before. We do need to live in this world and be separate, but even Jesus made Himself available to every strata of mankind, and had not a self-righteous bone, or the appearance of one in His body.

Lest anyone think I’m picking on head-coverings, I’m not. That’s definitely a conviction between a couple and God. I’m just pondering on how far we need to/should go to preserve the ideal of modesty/purity. With fashions constantly warring with modesty, it would be nice if we actually could come to a definition of the term that would satisfy everyone.

But it’s not going to happen till Heaven!

For example, my daughter and I spent a couple of summers trying to find modest swimwear and it was an uphill battle. Where do you draw the line between practicality and modesty? We finally decided that the most modest thing for us to wear was a one piece bathing suit with swim shorts — rather than something so modest it looks like it came from the 1800’s– because at a public pool that is proper in context and doesn’t draw undue attention, and therefore we look modestly dressed. By contrast, someone wearing a swimsuit at the grocery store (like we’ve seen some women do in our small town) looks embarrassingly un-dressed. It’s out of context, and draws undue attention.

By the same token, we found that when we spend time hanging out in the river it feels more modest and appropriate to wear t-shirts and cutoffs, rather than a swimsuit, because, once again, a swimsuit feels out of context, and therefore immodest. And we found that clothes that are appropriate and modest in the context of gardening or picnicking are not the same ones that are appropriate and modest for a church service or a wedding. (although sometimes I’m embarrassed by how undressed the bridal parties often seem to be….My boys think it looks like someone gave all the bridesmaids’ dresses a hard yank, leaving too much dress at the bottom and not enough at the top…)

We found that if we looked carefully, we could find fashionable clothes that are still modest. Or alternatively, we could make them modest by layering or wearing undershirts (check out this site: shadeclothing.com)

This is a lot more fun and interesting than wearing oddball clothes simply for their “modesty,” and no one is staring at us.