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	<title>Comments on: What to Say When Someone Dies</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/</link>
	<description>Standing in the Gap in a Society that's Warring with God.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-78042</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-78042</guid>
		<description>I can't win this argument?  Please.

Government both oppresses religion-- whatever religion is not currently the accepted one.  Hence our Bill of Rights.  A quick look at the Middle Ages (or even the current state of affairs in the Middle East) would be most instructive.  At each of these points in time there are accepted religions and unacceptable religions.  King James, I believe, created the Anglican church because he didn't want to be beholden to the Pope.  And all of England had to be Anglican.  The Roman Catholic church is notorious for the same kind of folly-- mixing government and religion.

And that is the problem.  Whenever religion is mandated, all others are persecuted.  However, the basis of this country founded on Christianity and freedom of conscience means that you're free to be hedonistic and I'm free to be Christian and the government will not (or should not) interfere with our right to believe whatever we choose.  And that is the Christian principle.

The problem that I see most of the times when I come to this discussion (and you're exhibiting the same logical fallacy) is equating the teaching with the practice.  Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world and that salvation is a free choice, not something to be coerced or forced into.  This is exactly the opposite of the crusades.  True Christians died for their faith-- they did not hold high office and kill people who disagreed.

And lastly, if you believe Jesus and what He taught He taught that He was the Son of God, sent to die for the sins of the world, and that He rose again from the dead.  He taught that He created the world, etc.  That flies in the face of your former statements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t win this argument?  Please.</p>
<p>Government both oppresses religion&#8211; whatever religion is not currently the accepted one.  Hence our Bill of Rights.  A quick look at the Middle Ages (or even the current state of affairs in the Middle East) would be most instructive.  At each of these points in time there are accepted religions and unacceptable religions.  King James, I believe, created the Anglican church because he didn&#8217;t want to be beholden to the Pope.  And all of England had to be Anglican.  The Roman Catholic church is notorious for the same kind of folly&#8211; mixing government and religion.</p>
<p>And that is the problem.  Whenever religion is mandated, all others are persecuted.  However, the basis of this country founded on Christianity and freedom of conscience means that you&#8217;re free to be hedonistic and I&#8217;m free to be Christian and the government will not (or should not) interfere with our right to believe whatever we choose.  And that is the Christian principle.</p>
<p>The problem that I see most of the times when I come to this discussion (and you&#8217;re exhibiting the same logical fallacy) is equating the teaching with the practice.  Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world and that salvation is a free choice, not something to be coerced or forced into.  This is exactly the opposite of the crusades.  True Christians died for their faith&#8211; they did not hold high office and kill people who disagreed.</p>
<p>And lastly, if you believe Jesus and what He taught He taught that He was the Son of God, sent to die for the sins of the world, and that He rose again from the dead.  He taught that He created the world, etc.  That flies in the face of your former statements.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-78039</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-78039</guid>
		<description>You can't win this argument. Really. Give up and embrace hedonism.

"The tendency of all government... is to oppress religion"? Where did you come up with that one?

Factions throughout Europe before the Age of Enlightenment (not Darwin's time as we have established) razed and battled and killed. These factions had religious overtones. 

Religion is something to be feared. 

But, he's a nugget for you. I believe in Jesus and what he taught. Jesus is just like Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr., men who were oppressed and fought back with the only means at hand, peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t win this argument. Really. Give up and embrace hedonism.</p>
<p>&#8220;The tendency of all government&#8230; is to oppress religion&#8221;? Where did you come up with that one?</p>
<p>Factions throughout Europe before the Age of Enlightenment (not Darwin&#8217;s time as we have established) razed and battled and killed. These factions had religious overtones. </p>
<p>Religion is something to be feared. </p>
<p>But, he&#8217;s a nugget for you. I believe in Jesus and what he taught. Jesus is just like Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr., men who were oppressed and fought back with the only means at hand, peace.</p>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-78038</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-78038</guid>
		<description>Thomas Jefferson was only one of the founding fathers.  If you look closely you'll see that not only were a majority of the founders Christian (at least nominally) but they also put protections into the Constitution for Religious freedom because the tendency of all government, not just "religious ones" is to oppress religion.  The reason that we are different from Iran is not that our founders were not religious, but that they recognized the freedom of conscience-- something that is foundational to Christianity.  "Whosoever will" is the message of Christianity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas Jefferson was only one of the founding fathers.  If you look closely you&#8217;ll see that not only were a majority of the founders Christian (at least nominally) but they also put protections into the Constitution for Religious freedom because the tendency of all government, not just &#8220;religious ones&#8221; is to oppress religion.  The reason that we are different from Iran is not that our founders were not religious, but that they recognized the freedom of conscience&#8211; something that is foundational to Christianity.  &#8220;Whosoever will&#8221; is the message of Christianity.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-78035</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-78035</guid>
		<description>There is no Michael.

I never said Darwin was a part of the age of enlightenment. Thomas Jefferson was. It was a time when western intellectuals realized that the formation of a stable nation must not have religion in any part of its architecture. We'd be like Iran if the founding fathers didn't remove themselves from religious zealots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no Michael.</p>
<p>I never said Darwin was a part of the age of enlightenment. Thomas Jefferson was. It was a time when western intellectuals realized that the formation of a stable nation must not have religion in any part of its architecture. We&#8217;d be like Iran if the founding fathers didn&#8217;t remove themselves from religious zealots.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment" >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment</a></p>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-78034</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-78034</guid>
		<description>And somehow it's more hopeful to say "I'm sorry, but your loved one has ceased to exist and you'll never see them again"?

Saying "there is no god or God" changes reality as much as me saying "there is no Michael."  You are there, and so is He.  And the important thing to know is that He died in our place for the wrong things that we have done.

It's in the historical record, there's mountains of evidence.  You are certainly welcome to believe what you will, but you should at least look into it before categorically rejecting it.

Oh, and by the way, before you go using date discrimination you should know that Darwin was alive February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882-- not so far removed from the 18th century you vilify.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And somehow it&#8217;s more hopeful to say &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry, but your loved one has ceased to exist and you&#8217;ll never see them again&#8221;?</p>
<p>Saying &#8220;there is no god or God&#8221; changes reality as much as me saying &#8220;there is no Michael.&#8221;  You are there, and so is He.  And the important thing to know is that He died in our place for the wrong things that we have done.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s in the historical record, there&#8217;s mountains of evidence.  You are certainly welcome to believe what you will, but you should at least look into it before categorically rejecting it.</p>
<p>Oh, and by the way, before you go using date discrimination you should know that Darwin was alive February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882&#8211; not so far removed from the 18th century you vilify.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-78032</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-78032</guid>
		<description>Oh pah-leeze. There is no god or God. The age of enlightenment was in the 18th Century. Are we going into the darkness again? Do you not accept Darwinian evolution too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh pah-leeze. There is no god or God. The age of enlightenment was in the 18th Century. Are we going into the darkness again? Do you not accept Darwinian evolution too?</p>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-78023</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-78023</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, Michael, sometimes the truth is hideous.  It's definitely not something I would share with the family at the time of mourning-- that would just make it worse-- but it is also a sobering reminder of the weight of the message that Christians bear.

People are dying and going to Hell today and we have the answer.  What are we doing with it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, Michael, sometimes the truth is hideous.  It&#8217;s definitely not something I would share with the family at the time of mourning&#8211; that would just make it worse&#8211; but it is also a sobering reminder of the weight of the message that Christians bear.</p>
<p>People are dying and going to Hell today and we have the answer.  What are we doing with it?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-78020</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-78020</guid>
		<description>"If the person did not know Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, then there is not much hope that you can give"

That is an awful thought. You are hideious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If the person did not know Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, then there is not much hope that you can give&#8221;</p>
<p>That is an awful thought. You are hideious.</p>
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		<title>By: ann_in_grace</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-1854</link>
		<dc:creator>ann_in_grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 12:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-1854</guid>
		<description>Very true indeed.
Very recently I experienced exactly this:
"If the person did not know Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, then there is not much hope that you can give". I just stood there, wanting to reach out to this person, but there was nothing I could do, really.
&lt;a href="http://sveana.blogspot.com/2006/09/i-wish-i-could-give-comfort.html"&gt;Here is where I described this time.&lt;/a&gt;

Anna</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true indeed.<br />
Very recently I experienced exactly this:<br />
&#8220;If the person did not know Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, then there is not much hope that you can give&#8221;. I just stood there, wanting to reach out to this person, but there was nothing I could do, really.<br />
<a href="http://sveana.blogspot.com/2006/09/i-wish-i-could-give-comfort.html">Here is where I described this time.</a></p>
<p>Anna</p>
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		<title>By: MInTheGap</title>
		<link>http://www.minthegap.com/2006/08/15/what-to-say-when-someone-dies/#comment-543</link>
		<dc:creator>MInTheGap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minthegap.com/?p=697#comment-543</guid>
		<description>I can agree with that-- just being there is important!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can agree with that&#8211; just being there is important!</p>
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